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Transcript provided by YouTube:
00:00
– I’m gonna ask everyone listening,
00:01
removed two claims from your vocabulary.
00:07
Reverse racism, remove it, there’s no such thing.
00:11
And I’m not racist.
00:14
I’m gonna actually ask for white people
00:17
to just remove that claim.
00:28
– Hey There Human, with me Rainn Wilson.
00:34
Hey everybody, it’s me Rainn Wilson.
00:38
Welcome back to Hey There Human.
00:40
So nice to see you guys,
00:41
I’m really excited about today’s show.
00:43
Robin DiAngelo is on the show,
00:46
she’s the author of “White Fragility”
00:48
which has been a number one bestseller
00:50
for like two years now.
00:53
This has been a crucial and seminal book,
00:57
discussing basically why white people
01:01
have such a hard time talking about race.
01:03
Why they get so prickly and defensive,
01:05
and say they, me to, us to, us we whites,
01:09
prickly and defensive and have issues
01:12
really digging in and having those tough,
01:14
difficult uncomfortable conversations about race.
01:18
It’s hard, I love living in denial.
01:22
I love living in my little elite Hollywood privileged tower
01:27
of not really looking at race
01:29
and not having to deal with it and uncomfortable emotions.
01:33
I don’t even like it like if someone gets testy
01:36
at a Starbucks that their drink order is wrong.
01:38
I’m like ooooh, mom and dad are fighting.
01:41
Oooh, divorce trauma, I don’t wanna look
01:44
at difficult and dangerous emotions.
01:47
And so I pull away.
01:49
Let alone stuff that bears the wounds and the trauma
01:54
of over 400 years of oppression in various ways.
01:59
I wanna say that one of the things
02:02
that has really bummed me out
02:04
in all of the kind of online debate going on,
02:08
it’s basically red states versus blue states
02:12
and this great rift,
02:17
this division between the urban and the rural
02:20
and the Trump supporter and the non-Trump supporter
02:22
and the All Lives Matter versus Black Lives Matter,
02:25
this giant rift that has been created.
02:28
But the thing that bums me out about it is,
02:30
and again, I’m not here to get into that specifically,
02:33
but what bums me out about it,
02:35
is just the lack of compassion.
02:37
Like people are dying in really grotesque ways,
02:42
they have been for decades, for centuries really,
02:46
and the least we can do,
02:48
no matter what your political affiliation is,
02:50
just like slow down and have some deep deep compassion
02:55
in your heart for George Floyd, his family,
03:00
Brianna Taylor, her family,
03:03
countless African American families that have undergone
03:06
this kind of trauma in the hands of police
03:09
and other institutions
03:10
and not just big traumas like murder,
03:13
but like all the little traumas,
03:15
and to take some time and learn humbly
03:20
about that situation,
03:24
and to just feel for people.
03:26
Now listen, I know a lot of you are thinking,
03:29
hey, we need to do a hell of a lot more than just feel,
03:31
but you what, you can start with feeling, you know.
03:34
Any action starts with a motivation
03:38
that comes from a feeling.
03:39
So, I’m talking about not just like aaaaaw, like empathy,
03:43
like aaaw, people are suffering, aaaw.
03:46
It’s more like, I have a deep, heart-based soul-based
03:51
compassion if I put myself in their shoes
03:54
as what they could be going through,
03:56
and let that spur us to action.
04:00
So, let me bring on Robin DiAngelo.
04:05
Hi, how are you Robin?
04:08
– Hi.
04:09
– Thank you so much for last minute coming on our show,
04:13
and I know you’re the most sought after guest
04:16
kind of going right now, for a lot of very good reasons,
04:20
and I’m really honored that you’re on Hey There Humans.
04:24
So thank you for stopping by.
04:26
– Thank you for inviting me Rainn.
04:29
– So, I will admit,
04:31
I’m only about halfway through your book,
04:34
but, I’m just loving it.
04:36
And for me and maybe this is part of my white fragility,
04:41
is it’s hard to take in
04:44
so I’m kind of doing it in bite sized pieces
04:47
and like, pondering it a lot.
04:50
Is that part of my white fragility
04:51
or is that kind of, is that standard human?
04:53
– No, I’m so glad you’re doing that.
04:56
You know, if there’s an emotional aspect to it
04:59
that’s very very deep
05:00
and you were talking about a compassionate,
05:02
on some level I think white people have to ask ourselves,
05:05
why are our hearts not breaking?
05:08
What did it take to break our hearts?
05:11
What did it take for us to see?
05:13
And so I think it’s really healthy to like,
05:14
let yourself feel it.
05:16
Because if you don’t,
05:17
if you just keep reading and pushing through that,
05:21
that just kind of protects the vulnerability
05:22
and the humility that we really have to reach for.
05:26
And white fragility is not sensitivity
05:29
or vulnerability or humility,
05:32
and even some defensiveness is a normal response
05:36
to being called in on something.
05:40
It’s defensiveness that we don’t work through.
05:43
It’s defensiveness that ends up functioning to excuse us
05:47
from further engagement.
05:49
I’m sure you’ve seen this before.
05:51
Well, then forget it.
05:52
I’m not gonna say anything if I can’t say anything right.
05:56
That kind of defensiveness functions to protect
06:00
you from any further growth or awareness, right?
06:04
It’s a kind of refusal to be stretched or expanded.
06:08
So yeah, take your time.
06:10
– Good, thank you.
06:12
And thanks also for permission to kind of make mistakes,
06:17
because that’s part of how I’ve felt in this last month.
06:21
I just know I’m gonna make mistakes.
06:23
I’m gonna just say the wrong thing,
06:25
I’m gonna blunder in certain ways,
06:27
I’m kind of a blunder as a person.
06:29
As a privileged white male, I have blind spots.
06:33
There’s a lot more than I have the blind spots,
06:35
but I got some big blind spots
06:37
about how people might interact with me or feel about me.
06:40
So let’s talk about that, you know,
06:43
people making mistakes in conversations about race.
06:46
– You’re asking me all the right questions.
06:49
If you think I am articulate and clear
06:52
about how racism functions,
06:54
about white people’s role in racism,
06:56
it is from thousands and thousands of mistakes
07:00
across 20 decades.
07:01
I could not learn if I was not making mistakes.
07:06
The key of course,
07:08
there’s a difference between careful and thoughtful.
07:12
We don’t wanna be so careful that we’re not authentic.
07:15
I will never forget an interaction
07:17
with a friend of mine who’s black,
07:18
and one day over lunch she said to me,
07:20
“Robin, you’re always talking over me
07:22
and that’s your racism.”
07:24
And I was like, no it’s not,
07:26
that’s not my racism I talk over everybody.
07:29
So if I talk over everybody it can’t be racism.
07:32
And she had to work to get me to see
07:33
but when you do that to me, the impact is different,
07:38
in the same way that when you as a man talk over a woman,
07:41
the impact is different because the history is different.
07:44
So, carefulness just has us looking tight
07:49
and insincere and not very warm,
07:51
but thoughtfulness is always considering
07:54
what is my position in relationship to this person.
07:59
We bring our history with us into that encounter.
08:02
Yes I’m Robin, an individual,
08:05
I’m also a white individual.
08:08
And I have to also hold that the history
08:10
that I bring across race is one of harm.
08:14
The other piece about making mistakes is repair.
08:17
I’ve had countless black friends say to me,
08:20
we’re not gonna give up on you
08:22
when your socialization surfaces,
08:25
when the assumptions that have been kind of conditioned
08:28
into you come out.
08:30
We’re not gonna give up and abandon you.
08:32
If we did that we’d really be isolated,
08:34
and we need you in the struggle.
08:37
What we’re looking for in those moments
08:39
when it does surface as it inevitably will,
08:43
is where can we go with you?
08:45
Can we talk about it?
08:47
Are you willing to learn from that mistake?
08:49
Are you willing to repair and acknowledge
08:52
the harm that was done from the mistake,
08:54
whether you intended it or not?
08:56
Can you let go of your intentions?
08:58
Can you stop going on about how you didn’t mean to do it,
09:01
and look at the fact that it still impacted me
09:05
in a way that hurts me.
09:07
And that comes from a very different premise.
09:10
The premise that fuels defensiveness
09:13
is only bad people could be racist,
09:16
only people who mean to do it could do it,
09:19
and therefore, if you’re telling me that I’m doing it,
09:22
you have to have misunderstood me.
09:24
Because it’s just not possible for me to have done that.
09:26
When you realize it’s really more like,
09:29
it’s not possible for me not to have these blind spots,
09:34
it’s liberating.
09:37
Because then you just stop defending
09:39
and deflecting and denying,
09:41
you start seeking to want to understand
09:45
and change your blind spots.
09:47
– Two things, I’ve really wanna talk to you
09:49
and I know you need to go at certain point.
09:52
One is, I love how you,
09:56
I don’t think it’s just you, but in the book,
09:58
you talk about redefining the word racism,
10:00
obviously we know the difference
10:01
between prejudice and racism.
10:04
Some people are starting to learn that,
10:06
that prejudice is something that can be felt by anyone,
10:10
and under any circumstance,
10:11
and racism is prejudice taken to such a degree
10:14
that it has infiltrated systems
10:16
and institutions to oppress and hold people back.
10:21
But the idea of reframing and redefining what racist means.
10:27
Because people think in their heads,
10:29
a lot of people racist means
10:31
I call a person of color a derogatory name
10:34
and I spit at them and I feel hatred in my heart
10:37
or contempt in my heart,
10:38
that’s what being a racist is,
10:40
and that maybe that was a racist in the 1890s.
10:43
But, now, we have to look at a more kind of subtle,
10:48
variegated, multifaceted viewpoint
10:52
of what being a racist is.
10:54
Can you talk a little bit about that?
10:56
– I really appreciate that you articulated
10:58
the difference between prejudice and racism,
11:00
but I’m gonna reinforce that because it’s foundational.
11:04
Everyone has racial bias, right?
11:08
Van Jones gonna have racial bias against me
11:11
because I’m white and he doesn’t even know me.
11:14
But racism is what happens when you back my group’s bias
11:19
with legal authority institutional control.
11:22
It’s transformed so that it becomes the default.
11:25
It becomes automatic, I get to go about my day,
11:28
and it is upheld, just by virtue in some ways
11:33
of me doing nothing about it.
11:35
I’m gonna ask everyone listening,
11:36
remove two claims from your vocabulary.
11:42
Reverse racism, remove it, there’s no such thing.
11:46
And ‘I’m not racist’.
11:49
I’m gonna actually ask for white people
11:52
to just remove that claim.
11:55
When I hear a white person say this,
11:57
I think to myself, ooh this person has no understanding,
12:01
no critical thinking, no current education on this topic.
12:04
– So that’s great.
12:05
So, if I’m removing the phrase from my life,
12:10
‘I’m not racist’, because me Rainn Wilson,
12:13
I try my utmost to feel love for people of every culture,
12:17
background, reaching out to people in different skin colors,
12:20
supporting various causes, etcetera.
12:23
So I’m like, Mr. Progressive, Hollywood elite douche bag.
12:29
But, how do I reframe that?
12:33
If I’m taking away the phrase ‘I’m not racist’,
12:36
what do I replace that with?
12:38
– Thank you for asking that.
12:40
So first of all, because I’m sure there’s people
12:42
who are still reeling from the fact that I even said that.
12:46
Virtually any act that you can identify
12:48
as a white person that was racist, Amy Cooper in the park,
12:52
the people who do those acts are gonna say I’m not racist.
12:55
So it just becomes–
12:56
– She said I’m not racist,
12:58
and she called the cops on a guy birdwatching.
13:01
– Our president says he’s the least racist person
13:04
you’ll ever meet.
13:05
It’s meaningless, and it’s not at all convincing
13:08
to black people when we say that.
13:11
And so it’s more that if we get back
13:14
to changing the premise
13:15
that there’s no way you could have been exempt
13:17
from the forces of racism.
13:20
They shape the way you see the world,
13:22
the way you think about yourself,
13:25
what you expect as you move through the world,
13:28
what you take for granted,
13:30
who you’re in relationship with,
13:31
who you’re not in relationship with.
13:35
So I suppose I would need to think about
13:38
what I would replace it with,
13:39
but I can tell you the question
13:40
that most white people ask now is,
13:44
if they’re racist, right?
13:46
Am I racist?
13:47
And the answer that most white people will give
13:49
is no, I’m not racist.
13:52
So then what further action is required from us,
13:54
if our answer is no, I’m not racist?
13:57
Nothing, which of course, in racist society is racism, okay?
14:03
When you change your question to,
14:05
how have I been shaped by racism
14:08
and how is it coming out in my life, in my work,
14:11
it puts you on a completely different path, a lifelong path.
14:17
And that’s that liberating kind of question, how?
14:21
And then you start looking into how it has shaped your life.
14:24
And you know my book has lots of,
14:26
I have a book called “What Does It Mean To Be White”
14:28
There’s lots of reflection questions
14:29
that can help you unpack that.
14:33
We’ve got to start talking to each other,
14:36
as insiders we do understand this in a way
14:40
that black people can’t understand
14:43
or don’t have that insight or peace,
14:45
and white people we will never understand racism
14:49
if we are not listening to black people
14:52
and other peoples of color.
14:54
So go and support their work.
14:57
– And I will say like I said at the top of this thing,
14:59
like, I get uncomfortable if someone’s yelling
15:01
at a Starbucks barista cause they got the order wrong.
15:04
Like, I don’t like contention and conflict
15:07
and so I hate having these discussions.
15:11
I hate it.
15:12
I would rather…
15:13
– It went pretty well, didn’t it?
15:14
– I thought this was a great talk but,
15:17
someone just, real quick,
15:20
someone said that you have to have the discomfort
15:25
to go through to transformation, right?
15:29
– If we will grant the premise that this society is racist.
15:34
That the bedrock of this society is racist,
15:36
in all kinds of ways it reproduces racial inequality
15:39
24 seven, which it does,
15:42
you and I as white people move through a racist society
15:46
every single day in racial comfort.
15:49
I’m comfortable in a racist society.
15:51
Wow, that’s another deep thing to look at.
15:53
So we are not gonna get where we need to go
15:55
from a place of white comfort.
15:59
But safety and comfort are two different things.
16:03
So, yeah, we gotta get uncomfortable for sure.
16:08
– Thank you so much Robin for your time.
16:10
Everyone please check out her book “White Fragility”
16:12
everyone else in the world has, get on the bandwagon.
16:16
It was such a pleasure talking to you,
16:17
I really appreciate your time.
16:19
– Thank you so much.
16:20
– Okay, bye bye.
16:21
– Bye.
16:22
– Wow, what a great conversation,
16:26
fascinating perspectives, please check out her book.
16:29
You know, one idea is to,
16:32
if you’re buying “White Fragility”,
16:34
google Black Owned Bookstores.
16:36
This is one way we can put our economic dollars to work,
16:39
to support black owned, people of color owned bookstores
16:43
and restaurants and buy our stuff from there
16:48
instead of Amazon.
16:50
Spreading much love to you,
16:51
thank you for being human beings.
16:53
I love you all, and I will talk to you soon.
16:56
Bye bye.
16:57
♪ Hey human ♪
16:58
♪ Hey human ♪
—
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